Torture - Does The End Justify The Means?
That’s the real question here. Are we as Americans ok with anything as long as the end justifies the means? The subject of waterboarding has been in the news a lot lately. There is one case that the administration says that due to waterboarding they got information that saved millions of lives.
Even in 9-11, the worst terrorist attack in history, there were not “millions” of lives lost. But we are supposed to believe that they received information by waterboarding someone that saved “millions” of lives.
They aren’t going to give us actual information to back that statement up. They will say they cannot do that due to national security. So they can claim anything they want without having to provide any proof whatsoever.
But let’s say they really did get information by waterboarding that saved whatever number of lives. Should we then be ok with pulling out people’s fingernails? How about electric shock? How about poking out someone’s eyeballs? How about skinning a person alive? How about burning them with fire? How about using brands to scar them until they talk? How about cutting off their testicles?
How far are we willing to go? The administration wants us to believe that as long as they can claim to get results that whatever they do is ok? We talk about waterboarding, but what if that isn’t enough to make someone talk? Can we go ahead and take it a little further?
How about caning people, which the US condemns when other countries do it? How about using a whip on people like was done to the slaves in our own history? Would those be ok too?
Jesus was tortured. The republican administration and GW Bush say they are christian. Christians are supposed to strive to live like Christ lived. We are not perfect like Jesus was. But we are supposed to try.
So I have to ask the question;
Who would Jesus torture?
Water boarding isn’t torture. People have to protect themselves. The Islamics don’t wear uniforms. They are cowardly and hide among kids and women. The waterboarding saved many of our troops, and perhaps a lot of civilians as well. Living for Yeshua, (Jesus) is an individual relationship. There are no “Christian” countries. I am a believer in Yeshua and I don’t believe in torture or the death penalty, however; I recognize the need for countries to protect their citizens. What would our world be like if the Islamics ran our countries, or the killers ran our towns? The Islamics teach and believe that ANYONE not Islamic is an Infidel. Infidels have 2 choices, death, or a non-status, no rights existance.
Comment by Hopesone Ben — January 5, 2008 @ 6:38 pm
Ben you wrote: “Water boarding isn’t torture.” Yet this country hung japenese soldiers in world war 2 for using that very form of torture on US soldiers. Guess you miss the irony there.
you wrote: “The waterboarding saved many of our troops, and perhaps a lot of civilians as well.” Prove it please. Besides saying george bush told us so.
you wrote: “What would our world be like if the Islamics ran our countries, or the killers ran our towns?” I don’t believe waterboarding is all that stands between us and islamics running our country. My gun and a few other people’s guns are another deterrant.
Torture is not a reliable means of information gathering. it’s been proven over and over again. There are better ways to do it.
Comment by namecritic — January 5, 2008 @ 11:15 pm
I’m sure that the Japanese that were hung had more crimes against them than Waterboarding. The agent involved in the waterboarding told of some of the plans of the terrorists that were averted. Why does Bush get blamed for everything? There were 10 years of broken UN sanctions against IRAQ. The whole congress agreed to move against IRAQ. Other world leaders are involved. And, if Bush is such a law breaker, why doesn’t the Bush hating portion of the congress take action? And, what a brave man you are, you have a gun. You will, of course,defend the whole country with you gun? Actually you only care about yourself, and your habitual bashing habits. Again, you say that we will use other fomrs of torture. That is your opinion. Hasn’t and won’t happen. No waterboarding doesn’t stand between us and the terrorists, but look around the world and see the results of trying to leave the Islamics to their “peaceful” lives. Go stay in Pakistan for awhile, or perhaps Saudi Arabia. That isn’t a glib saying, we are most fortunate for all of the ways that our lives are allowed to be successful, and free to make choices. I don’t choose to bitch and moan, and WHINE. If you aren’t already, you should be a supporter of Pelosi, Reid, and Murther. Very happy people. Hopesone Ben
Comment by Hopesone Ben — January 6, 2008 @ 4:37 pm
Republican presidential candidate John McCain reminded people Thursday that some Japanese were tried and hanged for torturing American prisoners during World War II with techniques that included waterboarding.
“There should be little doubt from American history that we consider that as torture otherwise we wouldn’t have tried and convicted Japanese for doing that same thing to Americans,” McCain said during a news conference.
“I would also hope that he would not want to be associated with a technique which was invented in the Spanish Inquisition, was used by Pol Pot in one of the great eras of genocide in history and is being used on Burmese monks as we speak,” the Arizona senator said. “America is a better nation than that.”
Waterboarding is specifically banned by domestic law and international treaties, but those policies don’t cover CIA personnel and President Bush’s administration.
McCain was a prisoner of war for more than five years during the Vietnam War. He was tortured during that time, but said he wasn’t subjected to waterboarding. Even the North Vietnamese did not use waterboarding.
“If the United States was in another conflict, which could easily happen, with another country, and we have allowed that kind of torture to be inflicted on people we hold captive, then there’s nothing to prevent that enemy from also torturing American prisoners,” McCain said.
Supporting our troops means not putting them into a position where this type of torure is justified by, “well america does it to their captives, why shouldn’t we do it to american soldiers we capture?”
As far a bitching, moaning, and whining, you really need to understand the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
Nationalists like yourself believe in supporting our president and our government in whatever they do. People in Germany under Hitler were nationalists.
A Patriots duty is to question every move our elected officials make to make sure they don’t trample on our rights or take away our liberties. A patriot loves his country, not his government or it’s elected officials.
Never do anything against conscience even if the state demands it. — Albert Einstein
Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else. — Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President of the United States
Crisis is the rallying cry of the tyrant. — James Madison
First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me — Pastor Martin Niemoeller, from the Kirchenverwaltung der Evangelischen Kirche in Hessen and Darmstadt
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. — Abraham Lincoln
I fear you speak upon the rack, Where men enforced do speak anything. - William Shakespeare
Man torturing man is a fiend beyond description. You turn a corner in the dark and there he is. You congeal into a bundle of inanimate fear. You become the very soul of anaesthesia. But there is no escaping him. It is your turn now. - Henry Miller
The healthy man does not torture others—generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers. - Carl Jung
There is only one thing that arouses animals more than pleasure, and that is pain. Under torture you are as if under the dominion of those grasses that produce visions. Everything you have heard told, everything you have read returns to your mind, as if you were being transported, not toward heaven, but toward hell. Under torture you say not only what the inquisitor wants, but also what you imagine might please him, because a bond (this, truly, diabolical) is established between you and him. - Umberto Eco
Tortures are a dangerous invention, and seem to be a test of endurance rather than of truth. - Michel de Montaigne
Torture—the infliction of severe physical or mental suffering—is frequently a component of systematic policies and attacks against individuals or groups, in peacetime or in time of war. Torture is used variously as a weapon of war, as a means of soliciting information or confession, as a technique to humiliate or punish, as a tool of repression or intimidation, and as a form of sexual violence. Its typical victims include political opponents; particular national, racial, ethnic, religious or other groups; women; prisoners of war; detainees; and ordinary criminal suspects.
In response, international law has prohibited torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment in absolute terms. The prohibition of torture and other forms of ill treatment ranks among the most firmly entrenched principles of international law regarding human rights and of international humanitarian law.
Comment by namecritic — January 7, 2008 @ 8:04 am
As to what you call whining, I call doing my patriotic duty of speaking out when I see a wrong.
No government ought to be without censors; and where the press is free no one ever will. Thomas Jefferson
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add ‘within the limits of the law’ because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual. Thomas Jefferson
I threw this one in because of Bush’s tax cuts that benefitted the rich.
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. Thomas Jefferson
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. Thomas Jefferson
When a man assumes a public trust he should consider himself a public property. Thomas Jefferson
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson
I could go on, but what bush has been doing to this country is nothing close to the principles this country was founded on and if you love your country more than you love george bush then you should be outraged.
Comment by namecritic — January 7, 2008 @ 8:19 am
It is interesting how people become convinced that their position is correct and the ends justify the means. I was in the military and we were taught to defend and honor the position of an officer. We didn’t defend the officer, as a person, but his position. When Bill Clinton was in office, he attacked the military, not allowing high ranking officers access to the white house. He wanted gays in the military, where a special team position is critical to success. The gays don’t understand that position, and are not capable of team winning. The military respected their commander in chief for his position. They didn’t question his position, even if they disagreed with his opinions or character. We, as a society are teaching disrespect for the positon of leadership, especially the white house. We teach that if we don’t agree with the position of another we can attack the person and their position. We teach that if we don’t like certain laws, or don’t feel that we agree with that law, we can break it and not be under its influence. That is anarchy. We are breaking down our lawful position as a nation. You can justify your position any way you want to and you can quote others who seemly represent your position. The opposition to Ann Coulter is her as a person. Her position and her facts and her presentation are crystal clear. I agree with her personality being a bit rough and perhaps arrogant, however, her position is quite sound. I don’t throw out a person because of their position. The liberal side of our society feels quite justified in attacking a person because they don’t agree with them. Now, don’t get me wrong, the conservative side, uses the same tactics, at least some do. However, overall, for me to uphold our democracy, I overwhelming choose the traditional, lawful, upholding of the position of the leaders, not their character, or person. I think that you would agree that their are a lot of kooky congress persons, on the left, that given the opportunity would wreck havoc on our culture. AND some judicial persons, all over the country that would do the same. You and I could have some interesting discussions in person. You understand that I must not attack the position of our leadership?? I would and could find much fault with President Bush and his character or positions on some issues. That wouldn’t build up our nation, only tear it down and give an example to the coming younger generation that I can poop on anyone i choose. Hopesone Ben
Comment by Hopesone Ben — January 7, 2008 @ 5:17 pm
First of all Ben, I want you to know that I really do appreciate your posts on my blog. I can be very harsh and critical at times but I want people to speak their minds. I want them to get pissed off a littel.
We have way too many people who just go along ignoring everything and apathy is what is most wrong with this country. People who have no opinion and no stance they are willing to take are not helping matters any at all.
We disagree on a lot of things but I suspect there are areas we fully agree on. Now as to your post;
The way this country was founded defined what patriotism is. Another quote, sorry, and this is not exact, “It is not your right to question your government, it is your patriotic duty to do so.”
Thomas Jefferson said something very similar to that, but not sure my wording is exact. But I take that meaning to heart. It is our duty to be ever vigilant where it comes to our government.
The framers of the constitution forsaw a time when our government, like so many before them, would begin to lean toward tyranny and would start to take away our freedoms.
They do it in the name of “protecting the children”, “keeping us safe from our enemies”, and a host of other acceptable sounding reasons that hide their real intentions.
Since Bush has been in office, our police have gotten the right to know what books we check out at the library, the right to wiretap US citizens not only without a warrant but without any judicial oversight at all, the right to hold US citizens without allowing them access to a lawyer and for an indefinite period of time without having to charge them.
There are three branches of government, the judicial, legislative, and executive branches. This is a checks and balances system that protects us the way it was intended to do.
Under bush, he has extended the executive branch to be above all others, which can lead to dictatorship. Think that sounds extreme? It’s actually possible for someone to take over the country as a dictator if you allow the executive powers to be absolute as bush has tried to do and has done in many cases.
Let’s say you trust george bush to be doing that for our own good. Let’s say you trust him completely.
What if Al Franken, Michael Moore, David Duke, Jesse Jackson, Pat Robertson, Bob Mahr, or some other extreme right or extreme left individual gets elected as president? Do you trust them with that same absolute power?
What bush has done is extremely dangerous to the freedom we enjoy in the US and threatens to destroy the system of democracy our forefathers set up altogether.
He has actually broken the laws that he pledged an oath to uphold. He calls the constitution, “just a piece of paper”, even though he swore an oath to uphold it.
When he and the CIA set up the secret prisons all over Europe to detain suspected terrorists, he first denied they existed, then when they were exposed he admitted they existed and admitted they were not legal, then “dared congress to make them legal so he can continue to do it.”
That’s like arresting a bank robber and having him dare the judge to make bank robbery legal so he doesn’t have to go to jail and can rob more banks.
If it was illegal when you did it then you broke the law. Bush broke the law by his own admission. I don’t expect a president of our country to break it’s laws. Those laws are what sets us apart from o0ur enemies.
On torture, when you use the tactics of your enemy, you are no better than your enemy.
On taking away some of our freedoms and rights to privacy that should be assumed by the bill of rights and it’s obvious intentions, then the terroists already won the war.
They hate the fact we have all of those freedoms. They attacked us and bush’s response was to remove some of those rights and freedoms. So they won.
So if you think I am attacking george bush just because I don’t like him personally, you are wrong. I talk about george bush because many people do not know what he is really doing to this country and how he bends over for corporate interests and his cronies, and how because of his response we lost some of our rights and freedoms promised to us in our constitution and gave the terrorists a victory.
Just remember, the powers you trust george bush with may soon be in the hands of someone you do not trust.
Comment by namecritic — January 8, 2008 @ 10:42 am
Never said that I “trusted” anyone. I upheld the position of president under Bill Clinton, or Jimmy Carter, as I now do for George Bush, and his father before him.
You say that we have 3 branches of government. The leadership in congress is so poor that they wouldn’t know how to challenge the president. They’re too busy attacking Limbaugh. They’re too busy attacking attorney generals because of politics. The congress is a mirror of our country. Weak, whiny, no stance on anything for more than 5 minutes, and definately over commercialized. So, my solution: clean house on congress. Bush is a strong leader, right or wrong on issues. The congress is frightened of Bush. The liberals, by definition don’t know what leadership means let alone be leaders. You much overvalue your opinion of impeaching George Bush. Get as strong or stronger leaders to match him.
Think of this: we don’t know what is going on around the world, only stupid commentators on all fronts. We don’t know what George Bush faces every day. We now have a world wide enemy, Islamic terrorists, that don’t fight as other armies, and avow over and over to destroy us. Our press, and the liberal side of the congress has made this a polital issue. It is not a political issue. The cold war is long gone, and we face fanatics that kill Infidels, thats us, and if they don’t have infidels close at hand they kill each other. (Sunni, Sheites). Until we face this issue, impeaching George Bush won’t solve a thing. He is gathering foreign leaders, and we are weakened by standing by the Saudi’s for their oil. They finance terrorists.
This isn’t a George Bush scare issue. It is real. The terrorists came at us in 2001 and will continue to do so. This is a different invironment than we have ever faced. The “mysterious” holding facilities around the world have been there since the cold war. Bush didn’t invent them or start them. The congress agreed to having wire tapping available because terrorists us Web sites, and cell phones, and have groups of terrorists in most major cities of the US. Just like your opinion of waterboarding leading to other more horrible torture techniques, people believe that our government is going to delight in listening to our phone calls. The people that are involved in illegal activities, child porno, bookmaking, money laundering, etc, even the business man having an affair and robbing his company is scared of being exposed. So, lthe press, the ACLU, liberal folkes scream “PRIVACY INVASION!!!”I
I agree whole heartedly that we must watch and holler against real threats to our freedoms. I do feel that the enemy that we face would quited quickly take my freedoms, and my life away if they could. Hopesone Ben
Comment by Hopesone Ben — January 8, 2008 @ 7:27 pm
“Never said that I “trusted” anyone.” - but you think it’s ok for bush to take more power than the president has the right to take. That’s a lot of trust in my opinion. Again, do you trust hillary clinton, Obama, and others with that same power? You can’t give it to bush without giving it to all presidents that follow him.
“You say that we have 3 branches of government.” - I don’t “say” it. it’s laws and how our country works. How it was founded and created.
“The leadership in congress is so poor that they wouldn’t know how to challenge the president.” - and when they do, he cites “executive power” and does as he pleases, just like a dictator would.
“The congress is a mirror of our country. Weak, whiny, no stance on anything for more than 5 minutes, and definately over commercialized.” - and you say that I don’t like this country?
“Bush is a strong leader, right or wrong on issues.” - so you think as long as he is strong it’s ok to be wrong or lead us in the wrong direction? Hitler was strong. Saddam Hussein was strong. Didn’t mean they were right or that people should follow them.
“The liberals, by definition don’t know what leadership means let alone be leaders.” - so there has never been a good democratic or liberal president in all of history?
“We don’t know what George Bush faces every day.” - true, but no matter what he faces, this is a nation of laws that he swore to uphold when he took office. He is not above the law just because you think his job is hard. Our laws don’t say you must obey the law unless it’s too difficult. it says you have to follow the law and that no one is above the law. Without laws what are we?
“We now have a world wide enemy, Islamic terrorists, that don’t fight as other armies, and avow over and over to destroy us.” - This still does not mean we throw out the laws of our country or give up our freedoms in favor of temporary safety. Ben franklin said it best. Those who are willing to give up their freedoms for safety, deserve neither.
“The cold war is long gone” - it was when Reagan was president. Now Bush has brought it back. russia has sided with iran instead of dealing with Bush because of his policies. Bush just restarted the cold war on top of the terrorist threat.
“He is gathering foreign leaders, and we are weakened by standing by the Saudi’s for their oil. They finance terrorists.” - very few international leaders favor bush in any way shape or form. We are less popular around the world since bush took office than any time in history.
On top of that, Bush would not allow the saudis to be investigated after 911 even though 15 of 19 hijackers were saudis. The saudis financed the oil company that george bush ran before he ran for office. The saudis are in business with several of bush’s cronies in the oil business. So your statement about standing by the saudis all falls on bush.
The liberals aren’t the ones protecting the saudis. Bush is the one doing that.
“The congress agreed to having wire tapping” - simply untrue. Bush approved the wiretapping before congress even knew about it. The law said he was to use a special subpeona issued by a special court just for that purpose. He chose not to. When it got out that it was being done without the courts permission, he went after congress to pass a law to make it legal after tha fact.
“The “mysterious” holding facilities around the world have been there since the cold war” - any links where I can read about this or is this something you just “believe.”?
“Just like your opinion of waterboarding leading to other more horrible torture techniques” - it doesn’t have to lead anywhere. The waterboarding itself is something we hung japenese soldiers for doing to our soldiers and it is illegal by international law.
“So, lthe press, the ACLU, liberal folkes scream “PRIVACY INVASION!!!” - So you believe that only liberals believe in the constitution? Only the ACLU and liberals care about the bill of rights? Wow. I’ll have to become a liberal then because I believe in the constitution of the United States of America. If that is your definition of a liberal, then sign me up as one. If by your reasoning, conservatives and republicans don’t believe in the constitution, then they should be hanged for treason.
Bush swore an oath to uphold that constitution. Why do you think that is in the oath of office? If you take that oath then do not uphold the constitution, you think thats ok?
Comment by namecritic — January 8, 2008 @ 9:07 pm
First off, in answer, who says that George Bush broke any laws as concerns the constitution? That noise is political noise from the liberal, Bush haters. I have seen a dozen presidents, and everyone of them has supposedly broken the laws set by the constitution. Check history and see the dictator type of positions that many presidents have taken. You want me to give some sites to check out the existance of foreign enemies being held in facilities all over the world. I witnessed German soldiers being held in Pennsylvania. I witnessed places in California where Japanese Americans were held in camps. It has been published over and over the holding facilities in Cuba. The people being held by our military are not American citizens, and not entitled to the civil rights of an American citizen. This has been the reality of military action for years. It is only the liberals, ACLU and other groups that use this situation as political nonsense to bash Bush. You can’t show, in any way that President Bush came up with the idea of holding facilities, (torture chambers, as you call them), and by his own persuasion set them in motion. Everything that the president does goes through his advisers and is scrutinized by Congressional committees. Congress is aware of everything before any action is taken. You are wrong in saying that President Bush authorized wire tapping before congress knew about it. They agreed, and when it was advised that newer technology involving the liability of communications companies should have a change in law, he initiated that change. Then, the congress pleads innocence and says very loudly that President Bush is unilaterally invading the privacy of American citizens. You are totally locked into a very narrow position, and really don’t want to know anything but what supports your Bush bashing, under the (patriotic?) song. I am not the one brain washed, because I look at all sides and try not to be opinionated. I listen to your position and it is really a political stance that has no valid foundation, just jibberish and hearsay.
Your sound very young and extremely uninformed about either political or economic basics. When you BASH George Bush
and those “Rotten” oil companies you surely are being brainwashed. Let’s shut down all ALL oil production and see who hollers first. Let’s lay off all of the people employed in oil production and by products. You would be the first screamer when your IPOD won’t work or your hair spray isn’t available. Again, bitching and whining, even under the guise of your patriotic duty doesn’t solve one thing. I have heard your line for years and years, from many many (patriots??). There is no way George Bush will become or desire to be a dictator, and if I were him I would have thrown in the towel a long time ago. You don’t begin to have the care for this country or the stamina to withstand all of the months of bashing by the supposedly “know it alls”, screaming that he is trashing our constitution. It just isn’t the truth as you say that you want to know. Hopesone Ben
Comment by Hopesone Ben — January 9, 2008 @ 5:24 pm
It’s sad Ben. You make assumptions then claim you have an open mind. What do you consider very young? I’m 49. I like being thought of as very young.
I served in the military in 1975 and 1976. So I don’t oppose vets either.
I voted for bush the first time, so you can’t say I’m a democrat either.
I don’t believe in abortions. I am not for gun control. I oppose gay marriage. Yet you in all of the wisdom you claim to have still say i’m a liberal.
I have the right as a US citizen to disagree with and oppose the policies of george bush and any other president who threatens my freedom and my privacy.
If you don’t believe I have that right, then it is you who does not understand this country and how it was founded.
But the far extrme right republicans like yourself want to hush everyone and keep them quiet when it comes to opposing your narrow views. you call it whining when freedom of speech is one of the very basics this country was founded on.
You cannot silence people by threats, innuendo, and accusations like you wish you could and like bush and his supporters wish they could.
You said one of our problems is standing by the saudis and their oil. I responded with the fact that bush is tied into that and responsible for that. You respond by defending the very position you said was one of our problems. Can’t make up your mind on that one?
We have had 16 years of 2 families being in power in this country and if hillary clinton is elected it could become 24, then if the younger bush runs and gets elected it could be 32 years of 2 families being in power.
You miss a lot of things by getting your news from the wrong sources. You think having 2 families control a country for that length of time is an accident? You think that in a real democracy that would happen?
Keep the blinders on.
Comment by namecritic — January 9, 2008 @ 7:12 pm
let me correct myself. We have had 24 years of 2 families in control and it could be 40 years if it keeps going this way.
Oh and by the way, young george bush isn’t the one that started his family’s corrupt ways. His grandfather did business with hitler during WW2.
Comment by namecritic — January 9, 2008 @ 7:15 pm
To answer #12 first, Joe Kennedy also supported, financially the Germans. So did a lot of businesses in our country. That has nothing to do with George Bush breaking laws under the constitution. What laws does he break? Because I don’t agree with you my news sources are in error?? That is an arrogant statement, and you assume your sources are better. Sure.
#11 You say we have so many years of 2 families in the White House. Who put them there, George Bush by executive powers?
Your deep seated anger and discontent seem to have clouded your thinking. My opinion is that Congress needs the overhaul, as I have already stated.
I remember a guy by the name of Ronald Reagan who was accused of over use of Executive Powers in Greneda, and Contra support. He changed our economic structure. Turned out historically to be one of the most influencial presidents of all time. He was bashed consistantly in the press and by political opponents. The same status will eventually be given to George Bush.
You accuse me of trying to stiffle opposition to Bush. Check it out, it is the liberals that want to stifle truth. Congress wanted to vote a law for equal time on the talk shows. Universities and colleges stifle free speach and harass anyone who opposes their dumb down robotical actions. I do not wish to stifle, I am opposed to lies and twisted facts and whining and moaning under the guise of patriotism. I say, get it ALL out there on the table. However the liberals and the majority of the media, as well as entertainers, and the so call constitution defenders don’t want all of the truth out there. It is called double standards. You have not even considered that George Bush has done anything patriotic or honorable for the good of this country. He is a slime, liar, constitution breaker, big business supporter of keeping the impoverished down, and hangs out with other like persons. And that is probably a favorable description in your opinion and many other “patriots”
As for your accusation of being an arch conservative, you haven’t heard a thing that I have said. All that I have done is try to convey that I defend the office of president and the Oval Office. That included Truman, Carter, and Clinton. AND it would include anyone else that occupies that office. You assume that I would attack a Clinton or an Obama. I don’t agree with either their politics, or their stand on issues, but once in the Oval Office, they would receive from me support of that position in that office. That is more than I can say of what I know of the actions taken place in the white house by some of the occupants in the past. Hopesone Ben
Comment by Hopesone Ben — January 10, 2008 @ 5:06 pm
And once again in my opinion you miss the point. It is not a ptriot’s duty to stand behind the president no matter what he does as you suggest.
A patriot loves his country more than it’s elected officials and is SUPPOSED to question and watch everything they do to be sure they do not trample on our rights.
I stand by my statement on that 100% and like you said you would support any and all presidents who take office, republicrook or democrook, I will continue to question and watch everything they do whether they are a rebublicrook or a democrook.
You an I define patriotism much differently. You think that by supporting our government or our elected officials that you are being patriotic. I believe questioning them is patriotic.
You think that questioning what they do or disagreeing with them publicly is whining. It’s not only my right to do so , it’s my duty to do so.
Comment by namecritic — January 11, 2008 @ 11:20 am
And so, after all the discussion we still have a difference of opinions. That is good.
I have asked a few times, and received no answer to date: Dedicated Patriot, what are the constitutional laws that President Bush broke, and continues to break? AND, my statement that you find no worth in President Bush’s presidency is true.
I haven’t noticed a lot of participation by other “Pissed Off, Patriots”. Hopesone Ben
Comment by Hopesone Ben — January 11, 2008 @ 6:15 pm
Here, read this. http://thingsthatjustpissmeoff.com/2008/01/12/illegal-wiretapping-by-president-bush/
Comment by namecritic — January 12, 2008 @ 3:56 pm
I do agree with some of u and dont with others…torture is bad… and yet it cant be stoped.. but why do u put all your hate towards one group? nazis tortured and slaughtered jews… white ppl tortured africans and enslaved them which is even worse …and now its the west’s turn to torture the middle east… some of you call them islamics…first of all..did u go to school?? its not islamics its muslims and not all of them are muslims and not all are evil… when a christian does a crime do u blame christianity? no…then why blme islam? FYI i am a muslim and no non muslims are not infidels to us…and nor they deserve death… come on you have to be smarter than that… god created us all..and just to let u know muslims believe in the same god as christians and jews do… we believe in moses and jesus . we believe in peace…and god forbids us to judge anyone..it is no one’s right to say if you are an infidel or watever…only god…and the only reason that the states is getting attaked is because of all the pain and suffering it caused the middle east…and also africa…africa is the continent that has the most resources..yet the west exploited it… took its riches and no look at the poverty over there…u are home safe and healthy and u dont even appreciate it… the world is not perfect …coz of man… we have values and resect in the middle east…but we have wars that are created by the west to mae it impossible for us to get better…and you guys live in first world countries , yet u have the highest crime rates and corruption and indecency… and no i dont ride a camel or watever..i live a normal life like u…probably even better…. but my country’s olitical state never is good…coz all the big countries choose to fight there wars on our territory… stop blaming others…coz basicaly u deserve whats hapeneinfg to u coz u didnt give a damn about the rest and u let your governments destroy the world… look at iraq…it was a country that had life..then the states claimed that iraq had super weapons and destroyed it and now its all chaos..where is the peace that u guys claim u want to bring to the world? and where are those weapons ??? and who gave u the right to have weapons and denied us ours??? we are defending ourselves as much as u guys are…or no actualy…going to another lad and killing innocent ppl isnt defending your land…its attacking others…u only defend when u are attacked on your soil…your government is corrupt…like all other governments…but urs is the worst coz it brainwashes u easily…most of u dont know shit about the world…i watch tv and laugh at u… i ve been all arround the world… i have knowledge about alot of things that u would never know… but hey since you are a first world country…then u deserve to live and let the rest die and suffer your torture….
Comment by Ram — June 13, 2008 @ 9:09 am
Not sure who you were posting to, but my original post was AGAINST using torture on ANYONE.
As far as your other comments, yes there are muslims who do not believe in suicide bombing and terrorism. There are muslims who do not believe we are infidels and deserve death.
However, the muslims that get all the attention do believe in terrorism, suicide bombings, and making the whole world muslim by killing anyone who is not muslim.
To deny that this is going on is burying your head in the sand. If you want muslims to be recognized for believing in the same GOD as christians and recognized for peace, then you need to clean up your own house and tell those muslims who do believe in terrorism and suicide bombings to stop.
Comment by namecritic — June 13, 2008 @ 3:50 pm
I would love to clean my own house…but u know i dont have the power to do it… those are the extrimists of our world…wether they are muslim christian jews or athiests… and trust me if i saw any extrimists i would kill them myself… i like freedom…i love life…goin to pubs ..having a few drinks… and thoe alot dont drink they know how to have fun…coz drinking isnt everything… but just to re-explain , the extremists in my world are only acting like that because they lost all hope of life after they have suffered from the torture that the west is inflicting on them… lets say that the states was invaded and god forbid your family was killed and u had no one left…. would sit down and do nothing or try to kill as much enemies as u can in many means nessecairy?? u might not give a real answer , but before thinking about just put yourself in their shoes… as civilized as you are you will become stubborn and dangerous when u loose your family… and you will become the enemy u swore to kill…. am i not right??
Comment by Ram — June 13, 2008 @ 6:43 pm